Anticipating The Changes

a conversation with Miles Davis' protege and current QCODE Head of Music Deron Johnson

Hey everyone! Today’s newsletter includes a broad and illuminating conversation with musician Deron Johnson. If you don’t know of Deron, you should…

Since the 90’s Deron’s had his hand (or should I say hands, since he’s a piano player) in a crazy amount of notable places. A quick surf through his Wikipedia page and you’ll find he was Miles Davis’ pianist during Miles’ late period. He hopped from touring and session playing to working in the music department at the Weinstein Company during it’s hey-day. And, more recently, Deron composes great original scores as Head of Music at QCODE Media, a podcast company known for their compelling, A-list narrative fiction podcasts, among other things.

QCODE is also where I met Deron, when I worked there in the early pandemic. We seemed to have many mutual interests, and I always appreciated hearing his perspective and wisdom.

With a new solo album out June 28th on Colorfield Records, I thought it would be a great time to invite him on the newsletter.

Topics discussed:

• the importance of producers

• how “scientific” composing and “improvisational” composing overlap

• taking lessons from people you look up to

• stumbling into opportunities with preparedness

• what makes Miles Davis and Hans Zimmer similar

WILL DINOLA: So, how are you? How have you been?

DERON JOHNSON: I’ve been good. I had a couple of highlights late last year.

One of them was I finally did a record. I wasn't thinking about doing a record. But I would go to this studio, a friend of mine's studio, on different sessions, and then he, along with my manager, had the notion for me to do a record on his label. He has an independent— I’ll call it jazz label— but it’s more an experimental label. He’s very into the ECM whole thing, with Manfred Eicher and all that. So we decided to make a recording.

One of his prerequisites with bringing in jazz heads like me is to not bring in any “songs.” So every song was created in the studio, mainly by me. He coached me in different areas and on different instruments. Once we did about 10 tracks of that, we started getting in three, four, five, six people to layer over these tunes. And it came out very interestingly.

WD: It looks like the last record you did was in 2008, right?

DJ: Yes.

WD: That's quite a jump of time. So it seems like you kind of fell into it out of circumstance. Was the record in 2008 that way too?

DJ: You know, I don't think that was attached to a label. We've got a lot of friends with studios and things like that. So I think a few of those records I did were not attached to anything, it was just like hey, let's get in the studio and have fun basically for a day or a week or a month or whatever.

I did one probably six, seven years before that one. And that took months and months to finish because there was really no producer. So I find myself in these wide open situations. There's a lot more responsibility once you get a hold of a label or producer, which is what I’m saying now: I’ll probably never jump in a studio without a producer.

WD: Why is that?

DJ: I think just the way I am musically, the way I am dispositionally, as far as being indecisive. When you do it for other people, I may have a little bit of ambivalence, but when you do it for yourself, there’s a lot of ambivalence of what’s good or what’s not good. Should this repeat or should it not repeat? Where am I going to sit myself or where is another person going to push me into? I think that's kind of a big thing, man.

I used to listen to The Police a lot. I was a massive fan and I started to hear about their goings on in the studio and Miles Copeland or whatever engineer was in there. They sort of got them to record, because that band would have imploded quite early on. [laughs]

So I think it’s attached to that. Who’s going to set the stage, who’s gonna allow us to cook in the kitchen?

WD: Yeah, it’s funny I was just getting in a rabbit hole of watching interviews with Prince’s engineer… Susan…

DJ: Susan Rogers, yeah.

WD: [Prince] would call into the studio for his setup. He would come in and just be able to hop from instrument to instrument because he was recording everything himself.

I think some people forget the amount of hands that are also molding what the artist ends up coming out with.

DJ: That’s right.

WD: I think some artists maybe have trouble accepting that help [too]: That’s when I work best, when I have someone to guide me.

DJ: I think it’s early on too, man. This thing is working. This guy has been helping. But then after the third record of a successful three records, the artist I’m sure would be like, okay, shit, I know what’s happening in the studio, now I can do it on my own. Or, oh yeah, I’m just going to go get another producer here. Trevor Horn, I’m done with that. I’m going to get David Foster. You may not know who that is, but I used to play with the guy for many years.

What I’m saying is there is ego attached to that, to not put your whole being into that producer person. But you’re absolutely right, they’re so integral, man. So many different people are very important to the process.

WD: And it happens with filmmaking too, in a different way. Martin Scorsese works with Thelma Shoonmaker.

DJ: From the beginning.

WD: So much of his style, and what we perceive as his style, is her style too.

DJ: Absolutely.

WD: You’re still going strong with QCODE stuff too, right?

DJ: Yeah.

WD: What’s different about doing the scores [for QCODE shows] and then doing these sessions. Because you come from an improvisation jazz background. Both [of] those instances you have to be quick with what you’re churning out. It’s not like you’re tinkering on a record for a number of years.

DJ: Right. You hit on the word for me: improvisation. I'm learning to finally trust that not everything is going to sound amazing all the time. But if you literally play two notes, you can make a whole symphony out of those two notes. Some say they have to be the right two notes. I'm like... you just made a step and made two notes. So that's a big friggin’ step.

There was only one song in this recording process that didn't really come off right. It just did not gel or whatever. We kept trying different things. That’s when, in this process you have to abandon it. And [the producer] was totally happy to be like, hey man, let’s abandon it. But we ended up fixing it. And it was great.

On the QCODE side, it’s the same thing, man. I’m not one to write the classic two minutes a day like our friend Johnny Williams did for 50, 60 years. That wasn’t my path. My path is definitely an improviser and I’m learning weekly or monthly to get into the “science approach,” more like Bach. Let’s deal with the mathematics, let’s not deal with just getting turned on by sound.

It’s interesting how I did this record, because I swear I was not in the mode to do it. But I did it and it’s how I work, just offering things up, as quickly as [I] can. Write quickly, they tell you sometimes when you’re writing a script, and then deal with revisions a little bit later.

So that’s how the QCODE thing has been. Every day or every project, I’ve been getting just a little bit better in a lot of different ways. But I’m noticing the trust, just in my own approach to what I think is right. And I think the [show] creators would agree most of the time.

WD: When you say that you're approaching it from a scientific method, what do you mean by scientific? Like theory wise?

DJ: Absolutely, man, because I’m not thinking. Because I have theory in my hands already and in my brain, I rely on just that. But if I took two steps back and I had a month to write not a huge amount of material, I could say, theoretically this, harmonically that. Let's dial that back or let's do another version of that. I don’t really utilize that side of my brain as much. I rely on the relationships I have in my mind and in my hands to just get the idea out instead of laboring over it.

Like, man, I mean, case in point, the laborer of doom was Beethoven, right? Chopin used to drive himself crazy as well. Obviously there are contemporary composers [who do this too]. I don’t want to go way back, but Beethoven notoriously was so popular [and] became that way by being such a hard ass on himself trying to figure out the best harmonic structure.

WD: Right.

DJ: That’s what I mean by science. It’s architecture in the highest form.

WD: Do you still practice? I imagine at some point when you were first starting out, you were learning [jazz piano] under someone? And you were probably doing your scales and doing exercises and stuff. Being in it for this long do you still find yourself being like, I need to practice my scales?

DJ: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s the scales that I think now are different. But, of course, there are thousands of those things. Closer to the top of this year, there’s a couple of guys in New York, or a couple of my favorite ones, so I ended up hitting up one of them to take lesson from, because I really enjoyed where he was coming from. It’s not about scales now. There’s another word for it.

WD: Is it color?

DJ: Yeah, it’s more color. It's more sound, more color, and it's more being able to manipulate those colors anytime you want. And I still need improvement there.

I heard the tune that you did, “blah blah blah,” what were you basing your ideas on? I will ask those questions, you know. I think those are always valid questions. I wish I could ask more composers, where were they when made this passage?

WD: I like that you’re just hitting up these guys or gals, whoever. I have a similar attitude with how I’m doing these conversations. It’s really important to be able to reach out to other people and see what they’re thinking, and see what you can learn from them.

DJ: Absolutely. I want to do it even more. It’s all kind of leveled right now, where we can do that. Everybody doesn’t always reply, but everybody’s on socials. When it works, it works. I think it works great. I’ve done it a few times already.

WD: What’s the Instagram account fornuminousmusicians?

DJ: I have a manager now. She’s been great at archiving my life, but she plays classical piano as well, wanting to play jazz piano. So I would show her stuff in the jazz world. And she has been sort of a guiding light pretty much as far as trying to get me out there more and other work and things like that. So she created that [account].

We have a mutual therapist, actually, who said the title “Numinous” which I didn’t know what it meant. And I don’t think she did either. But Numinous has something to do with community and things like that. Sort of the highest level of music and spirituality. It’s a whole world that’s out in the ether.

We wanted to do either a numinous project with different GOAT players that we love come in on a record, but we’ll see. We’ve become business partners in a lot of stuff, so we’d love to expand this whole thing, but the driving force for her is to get me out there more. She’s helping fund a lot of the stuff under this numinous banner.

WD: I guess I’ve found it through you sharing it. I was like, this is mysterious and cool and fun. I’m interested. You have me.

DJ: [laughs]

WD: It’s interesting hearing you talk and knowing how your trajectory has been. I’m curious if you [could] talk about intuition and listening [for] opportunities. Because I know you mostly began playing sessions, Miles Davis, all that sort of stuff, and then, I’m sure I’m simplifying, but then it was to the Weinstein Company stuff.

DJ: Yeah.

WD: And then QCODE and now to this new territory, which seems kind of up in the air, but [you’re] excited about where it’s going to go.

If you want to speak on this, like if making those shifts has been easy and intuitive, or have there been times when you’re like, I really genuinely don’t know.

DJ: You know it’s funny, you’re bringing up a good point. I think I was just talking about this to someone else, about just maneuvering your career, and how much you should think about it.

So intuition, yes. Anything that I’ve ever done, I think I had that feeling of like, I want to be here. I should be here. I could thrive here.

You know even going all the way back to the Miles experience through the Weinstein Company experience into QCODE. The whole thing has been, oh yeah, I could see myself doing that. Oh yeah, I want to do that. Oh yeah, I’m tired of this thing, so I want to do that thing now across the street. So it’s like all of those things at the same time.

I was a big Wayne Shorter fan, Miles fan, all that. This is like when I was just learning [piano]. The Miles thing was just like, that group he had in the 60s, you know, with Herbie and all those guys, it still doesn’t get any better than that for me. So I was all over that music before I played with Miles. So I knew. I felt that. The feel I have. [The] rhythmic nature I have on the instrument, I’m like, dude I’m definitely going to be playing with Miles. It’s just in your head, right?

So when it happens, you’re like, oh shit. Then it goes by fast. Then it’s over. But I felt that way about most of the things that I’ve done.

I played with Stanley Clarke for years, who’s a legendary bass player. And we used to have talks about, like, father-son stuff. I felt Miles was a father. I was very close to Bill Withers. He was a father figure. I would seek those people out, or at least my higher self: You want to know [a] greatest of all time male figure in your life, who’s a musician? There’s Miles. You want another one? There’s Bill Withers.

Oh, you want to get in the film world now? Not so much now, but my Lord was Miramax and the Weinstein Company… those two guys… they changed the landscape of all of this stuff.

That’s what was happening in my life. And I think it still does to this day, into the pandemic. And it’s funny, we can speak on the music layer of it, but this is very important, because when you have friends or when you have colleagues, how are you getting these people? Who are these people? Do you really agree with their morals?

So all my life has just been a few friends that have guided me. Including my wife, she’s the one that introduced me to the whole Miramax side and all that. But I put myself in that situation to be with her, to then meet [the Miramax people]. That’s how it works.

The QCODE thing. Man, I was literally about to go on tour with the Dixie Chicks. This was like February 2020. I’m auditioning, you know. I knew half the people in the band anyway. They were like, hey man we want you to do the gig. And I was like, okay. At the same time Brian and Rob, they call me. I know Brian through my wife as well, but he’s heard music that I’ve done. It was a thing. Not that I was lazy to tour, but I was like, you know what? This feels like a step in that direction that I want to do. And sure enough, man, I get into QCODE that first month… and lockdown hits. For the next two years, touring is gone. Podcasting is thriving beyond belief.

I stumble into these experiences, but you don’t stumble in without really having a sense of what you want and what you believe in. It just sort of occurs, man, it really does.

WD: I’m going to make a jazz analogy here, but it sounds like you need to “anticipate the changes.”

DJ: [laughs]

WD: It seems like that’s what you’ve done really. You have a sense of the landscape, it’s like with [music] theory. You have a sense of the [jazz] standards. And you’re like, this seems right.

DJ: Wow.

WD: Great jazz does feel like stumbling.

DJ: Yeah…

WD: Especially piano, just because it’s an instrument where you really have to reach around, more than a horn. Like every time I hear Coltrane’s “Giant Steps,” even on that record [the pianist] can’t even get through the piano changes, like it’s delayed, but it’s still great.

DJ: Dude, you’re well-versed. That’s really good. I love how you went to the exact one though, that’s perfect. Tommy Flanagan, man.

In his defense and to his credit, given the situation. On the day of, John was like jokingly, dude it’s going to be fine. I did hear stories like that surrounding that session. And of course, Coltrane was all over that for the last, probably two months, trying to figure out the science of… perfect this and odd that or whatever.

“I stumble into these experiences, but you don’t stumble in without really having a sense of what you want and what you believe in.” - Deron Johnson

*Hi again! If you’ve been enjoying this post and want to hear more about Deron’s future music projects, how Hans Zimmer and Miles Davis are similar, and which Herbie Hancock song both Deron and I have been into lately, that section is for paid subscribers and just a few clicks away.

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